Full chat log with @jasonrohrer is posted now!

Cuppycake: Jason, thank you so much for joining us today!
jasonrohrer: Great to be here.
Cuppycake: And thanks everyone for coming! Today was have Jason Rohrer, an independent game designer who has spent many years being immersed in something we all love - games!
Cuppycake: Along with many software projects, Jason has created many games - which he releases for free on the web for anyone to download. (Other than his iPhone versions, which he charges a little for)
Cuppycake: His games are known for being artistic and thought-provoking, and range from puzzles to shooters.
Cuppycake: Without further ado, let's start chatting with Jason!
jasonrohrer: Okay
Cuppycake: Jason, can you start off by explaining to our audience what an "art game" actually is, for those who don't know?
jasonrohrer: Well, the best analogy is the "art film"
jasonrohrer: Not deconstructing the medium of film to make art
jasonrohrer: (like video art)
jasonrohrer: but actually using the medium of narrative, commercial film to do something artistic
jasonrohrer: So, you go to a movie theater and sit down with popcorn and actually watch a film
Sent to jasonrohrer:  Feel free to prompt for the next question when you're done answering the one I give you :)
jasonrohrer: You don't go to a gallery to see these things
jasonrohrer: So, artgames are like that...
jasonrohrer: real, playable games, but they also have an artistic purpose to them
Cuppycake: Neat :)
jasonrohrer, private:  done
Cuppycake: We've seen a lot of that here in Metaplace actually, people creating virtual world spaces as artistic representations.
Cuppycake: How did you get into creating games?
jasonrohrer: Like most ppl my age... (31)
jasonrohrer: I've been playing video games my whole life.
jasonrohrer: So I always dreamed about making one... I tried a few times throughout my life, but it was always too hard.
jasonrohrer: After I had been programming for about 8 years, I decided to try again
jasonrohrer: and I actually made a real, working game (Transcend)
jasonrohrer: So it took all these different programming skills that I had built up from other projects before I could pull it off.
Cuppycake: Great, so Jason - some people here may not be familar with your work.
Cuppycake: Can you give a quick overview on the six games you've made, and what platform they're for?
jasonrohrer: Six? you mean 13
jasonrohrer: :)
Cuppycake: Good point, I was going off the 6 on your bio page :)
Cuppycake: Alright, you don't have to talk about ALL 13 ;)
jasonrohrer: Oh, yeah, but then I made 7 more for the Escapist
jasonrohrer: Anyway, those Escapist games are Windows-only...
Cuppycake: Just give them an idea of some themes that you represent with your games, that kind of thing :)
jasonrohrer: because I made them with GameMaker
jasonrohrer: But the rest run on Mac/PC/Linux... and I ported 2 for the iPhone as well
jasonrohrer: Well, my most well know game, Passage, is about the passage of life.
jasonrohrer: I also made a game about police brutality and how to overcome it
jasonrohrer: I made a game about the following question: "If you could be immortal, would you?"
Cuppycake: Very neat
jasonrohrer: I made a game about my relationship with my 5-y-old kid... and another game about the gulf between two people
Cuppycake: We have a question from Chooseareality
chooseareality: so those programming skills, were they from the business world?
jasonrohrer: No... mostly from my research work in academia (working on a PhD in computer science) and then later indie work on Peer-to-peer stuff
Cuppycake: About that
Cuppycake: You wrote one of the first peer to peer file transfer pieces of software, so you obviously feel strongly about people on the web sharing information with each other. Does this translate into your games at all?
jasonrohrer: Well, that spirit carries over in the way that I distribute my games, certainly
jasonrohrer: (placing them in the public domain, releasing the source code)
jasonrohrer: You know, you can't really stop people from copying information that you release
jasonrohrer: You can try, but they will always find a way around whatever you try!
Cuppycake: haha
jasonrohrer: So, it's just easier not to try...
chooseareality: So people are free to take your code and do what they want with it? What kind of license do you have on the code?
jasonrohrer: I used to use the Free Software Foundation's GPL...
jasonrohrer: but I found that to be too restrictive
jasonrohrer: Now I release everything into the public domain, which essentially means "no copyright"
jasonrohrer: no restrictions on use
Bigrebo: Do you ever make paper prototypes of your games? How do they begin life?
jasonrohrer: funny you should ask
jasonrohrer: I haven't made such prototypes for any of my past games...
jasonrohrer: because most of them were realtime games
jasonrohrer: but my current game is turn-based, and I've been doing a lot of paper prototyping for that...
jasonrohrer: I was playing it with my wife last night, in fact
jasonrohrer: How can I show an image here?
Cuppycake: You can link the URL in chat
jasonrohrer: slideshow?
Cuppycake: The slideshow is a little more complicated :)
jasonrohrer: okay, URL will have to do :)
jasonrohrer: http://tigsource.com/articles/2009/08/11/jason-rohrers-new-ds-game
jasonrohrer: chickpeas and pennies, baby!
jasonrohrer: (and those are DRIED chickpeas, by the way, so it's not as gross as it sounds... I guess some people only have seen them on salad bars)
Cuppycake: hahaha
Bigrebo: Has it changed your perceptions on development at all? I am working on a paper prototype myself at the moment.
jasonrohrer: Well... it really is appropriate---and maybe necessary?---for this type of game
jasonrohrer: You can write ideas down on paper, but you can't tell how they will work until you play (or prove stuff using game theory)
jasonrohrer: With my other games (one player, realtime), paper prototyping wouldn't make sense.
jasonrohrer: Oh... I did do some prototyping for Primrose, but that was a turn-based tile-placement game (Tetris family)
jasonrohrer: But for most of my other games...
jasonrohrer: I write the entire design down on paper ahead of time, an then I usually just code it up without any major changes.
jasonrohrer: When you're crafting a single-player experience, it's easier to visualize the whole thing in your head
Cuppycake: How do you get the inspiration for creating games? Where does it come from?
jasonrohrer: I look around my life for issues that are interesting or concerning to me
jasonrohrer: For a while, I was always keeping an eye open for complex emotional stuff in my life
jasonrohrer: but these days, I'm thinking more about interesting philosophical ideas...
Cuppycake: Do you have an example?
jasonrohrer: like, "Can we ever truly understand each other, even if we speak the same language?" That was the motivation behind Between
jasonrohrer: Inspired by Quine's work on so-called "Radical Translation"
Cuppycake: Did Between show you the answer to that? ;)
jasonrohrer: Well, I'm not looking for answers
jasonrohrer: I'm trying to make games that explore these interesting questions.
jasonrohrer: Now I'm thinking about how we know what we know about what other people know (and what they know about us and what we know)
jasonrohrer: E.g., the classic philosophy puzzle of the "cheating wives" or "muddy children"
jasonrohrer: Pretty interesting stuff that will make your head hurt if you think about it too much.
Cuppycake: That's interesting, most other designers we've had chat with us are mostly about creating entertaining experiences.
jasonrohrer: My new DS game is about those issues.
jasonrohrer: Well, I think it will be entertaining... but in a different way.
jasonrohrer: Wasn't the movie Memento entertaining?
jasonrohrer: Yet it kinda makes your head hurt! :)
Cuppycake: Definitely, it's a neat way of looking at games.
Cuppycake: Do you want to talk a bit about what you're working on right now?
Cuppycake: Tell us EVERYTHING. ;)
jasonrohrer: I just did, didn't I?
jasonrohrer: Well, I told you more than other people know so far.
Cuppycake: I suppose we'll be satisfied with that, then.
Cuppycake: We have a question about your new game :)
DBullardBates: Does making a DS game about a controversial subject like conflict diamonds make you nervous, in terms of sales and reception? (Very excited for that by the way.)
jasonrohrer: What has been released so far is this:
jasonrohrer: a turn-based, two-player strategy game for the Nintendo DS “about diamond trading in Angola on the eve of the passage of the Kimberly Process.”
jasonrohrer: okay, yeah, so you know that part already.
jasonrohrer: Yeah, it is a bit strange to make a DS game like that... but I think the DS audience is growing up a bit.
jasonrohrer: Also, I anticipate that the game will get an E rating... so it's not going to be filled with little kids carrying AKs or anything
jasonrohrer: But the backdrop is a little.... disturbing. Other than that, you might not realize that the game is controversial if you just sit down and play it.
jasonrohrer: Diamonds are good, right? Everyone wants em! Get as many as you can!
Cuppycake: Like people not realizing what "Puff the Magic Dragon" is about... ;)
jasonrohrer: (urban legend)... I guess it's a bit like Defcon
jasonrohrer: which was a strategy game *about* nuclear war.
jasonrohrer: So it gives you a bit of a creepy feeling when you play, but that doesn't stop you from getting into the strategy, which makes it even creepier
jasonrohrer: ANYWAY, the art in my game is not some ham-handed preaching about blood diamonds... it's in the exploration of the "know that you know that he knows that you know" stuff that I mentioned before
jasonrohrer: The diamond trade just happens to be a perfect setting for that exploration
Cuppycake: Haha
jasonrohrer: I mean, who can you trust... around Diamonds?
jasonrohrer: Especially in a place like Angola
jasonrohrer: So those diamond smugglers... man... they've got to be looking over their shoulders a lot
jasonrohrer: But as for the DS audience
jasonrohrer: What about Chinatown Wars?
Cuppycake: That's a real game?
jasonrohrer: There are more and more M-rated games (it's a GTA franchise game for the DS)
jasonrohrer: when a few years ago, there were no M-rated games.
jasonrohrer: So if the DS is ready for "mature" stuff like blood and boobs... well... maybe it's ready for intellectually mature stuff too!
jasonrohrer: That's the hope.
jasonrohrer: Anyway, it's also a matter of scope and scale.
jasonrohrer: On the DS, I can make an entire game by myself (small screen, low-res graphics) in 6 months or so.
jasonrohrer: I couldn't possible do that on an HD system like the XB360... too may pixels to paint.
Cuppycake: There have to be other unique challenges to making a DS game rather than PC, right? Distribution and all that?
jasonrohrer: So it's within reach... and I'm taking this platform and making the game that I want to make.
jasonrohrer: Yeah, well, it all started when a publisher approached me
jasonrohrer: I would have never gotten into it without that.
jasonrohrer: Later on, I learned that you can't get a DS dev kit without renting an office space... so I'm doing that now
jasonrohrer: I've been working from home for 6 years, so having an office is a big change
Cuppycake: I bet!
jasonrohrer: And... I can't say too much about the DS platform (secret), but, it's weird!
jasonrohrer: An embedded system, with all the stuff that goes along with that.
jasonrohrer: Even the iPhone acts mostly like a "real computer" by comparison
jasonrohrer: All the "standard" stuff, even
jasonrohrer: "printf" is not there...
jasonrohrer: I've never seen a platform that didn't have "printf"!
skateborden: You've mentioned that this will be your first boxed retail game, I'm curious why you didn't try to make it a downloadable game on DSIWare?
jasonrohrer: Yeah, that is a little weird, isn't it?
jasonrohrer: If I was making DSIWare, I wouldn't need a publisher.
jasonrohrer: So, it's because the whole thing started with a publisher that it's going the cart route
jasonrohrer: I may make a DSIWare game too at some point, though.
chooseareality: was it hard to get the idea for this game to be ok with the publishers?
jasonrohrer: Yes it was! In fact, they "red lighted" my first idea (about cheating spouses on the verge of divorce) because they thought it would be too controversial.
jasonrohrer: (on the DS, at least)
jasonrohrer: So I came up with another idea that explored the same philosophical issues of knowlege chains, and surprisingly, they green-lighted that
jasonrohrer: No sex, I guess...
DBullardBates: Can you tell us a little bit about the publisher (Majesco, right?) approaching you? How did that happen, what was you immediate response?
jasonrohrer: I think it happened after I released Primrose on the iPhone... they were on the verge of releasing their first iPhone game (KarmaStar)
jasonrohrer: One of their producers contacted me by email saying that they had played a lot of my games and would like to make a game with me in the future.
jasonrohrer: We had a phone call, and then a bigger meeting in person at GDC
jasonrohrer: After that, it was up to me to submit ideas to them.
jasonrohrer: But the DSi was the target platform all along
jasonrohrer: Even they thought the iPhone was too much of a crap-shoot!
Cuppycake: Do you want to talk a little bit about your experience developing for the iPhone? I know there is at least one person here who has considered going for it.
jasonrohrer: Yeah... well, it's not as secret as the DS, so I can say more about it!
jasonrohrer: First of all, it's much easier to get started... no expensive dev kit, no office, etc.
Cuppycake: Great :)
jasonrohrer: Just $100 membership fee, and that's it.
jasonrohrer: Of course, if you want to test your game in your hand, you need an iPhone too... but I think those have dropped to $99 now
jasonrohrer: And you also need a mac capable of running the dev stuff... I bought a used intel mac mini on Craig's list for $250
jasonrohrer: Programming for the iPhone is pretty easy... assuming that you figure out how to work around all the crap that Apple encourages you to learn/use
jasonrohrer: I.e., ObjectiveC only runs on one platform (Apple's platform), so there's no sense in learning it.
jasonrohrer: Only a tiny piece of Primrose is iPhone-specific... the rest of the code is platform-independent C++ and OpenGL.
jasonrohrer: Okay, enough tech details.
jasonrohrer: Now money details!
jasonrohrer: Releasing your game is easy too... apple approves everything.
jasonrohrer: But that means that there are something like 50-100 new apps released each day
Cuppycake: Small fish in a big pond, basically?
jasonrohrer: It's pretty much impossible to sell a lot of copies, even if you make a good game.
jasonrohrer: The people who have made money have just been "lucky", as far as I can tell.
jasonrohrer: On the other hand, I have brought in several thousand dollars so far, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.
Cuppycake: Very cool :)
jasonrohrer: There is also a long tail (a few sales a day for months and months), so that's nice
chooseareality: Do you think the iPhone market will settle down and stablize soon
jasonrohrer: But that is with a TON of press for my iPhone games... execellent reviews on all the major review sites
jasonrohrer: A game with less exposure... man... you won't sell a single copy.
jasonrohrer: Will it settle down?
jasonrohrer: No! It's the wild west!
jasonrohrer: It will just get bigger and bigger... it's interesting in a way, because there is no filter
jasonrohrer: People complain about how much publisher have power over the content that we see
jasonrohrer: Well, here's what the world is like w/out publishers!
jasonrohrer: Compare it to DSiWare
jasonrohrer: There are 30 games released there...
jasonrohrer: TOTAL
jasonrohrer: That's because the barrier to entry is steeper, and also because Nintendo is a bit more selective.
jasonrohrer: But we normally think about barriers to entry as a BAD thing, right?
jasonrohrer: Still, if you make a DSiWare game, even a mediocre one, you will bring in a lot of money for yourself
Cuppycake: Well, we're just about out of time
Cuppycake: But I have one more question for you
jasonrohrer: okay!
Cuppycake: I was hoping that you could give some advice to anyone here who is interested in getting started making games. What advice do you have?
jasonrohrer: Two words: Game Maker
jasonrohrer: Get Windows, get Game Maker ($20), and start making games.
jasonrohrer: It's an amazing tool... I've been calling it "the photoshop for games"... it's really that powerful
Cuppycake: Is it limited on what kind of game you can make?
Cuppycake: And it's all singleplayer, right?
jasonrohrer: No... you can pretty much make anything... multiplayer too
jasonrohrer: 3D might be more of a challenge, though some people have done it.
jasonrohrer: But the core of game design has nothing to do with 3D, so it's just a distraction anyway.
jasonrohrer: So, learn how to make games with Game Maker.
jasonrohrer: Before you know it, you'll know how to program, too... and then you can start learning to make games on other platforms
Cuppycake: Great :)
jasonrohrer: So, that's my advice! Make games. Start today.
Cuppycake: I'm going to take off the moderation now, so while Jason is done here - feel free to chat him up until he can't stand it anymore ;)
Chat moderation has been turned off in this area. Everyone may now chat normally.
chooseareality: thanks so much for coming
chooseareality: :)
Cuppycake: Thank you very much Jason for taking the time to talk to us :)

0 comments

Leave a comment...